Posted March 3, 2006
"Gordon" and "Serious" are two Mormons I encountered online and who, I believe, represent a common belief structure in that they hold that the Mormon Church is the Only True Church on earth. This belief has likely been ingrained into them since birth. I used to espouse this view without question. The following exchange depicts what many Mormons will do in order to rationalize this basic Mormon tenet of faith... er.. not faith, sorry... "sure knowledge"
Online Mormon poster GORDON:
[Adressing me]
Noggin- You have brought up the witnesses of others, and compared them to the witnesses of LDS members more than once, to which I would like to respond.
The problem isn't with their individual witnesses, which are just as valid as mine. The problem, instead, is to what they relate that witness to. As has been stated, more than once, on this thread, and to which you have acknowledged has been, the HG will witness any truth, concerning the Gospel, to anyone, at anytime. That witness, of itself, is just as valid as any witness an LDS member has received. But what, exactly, was the HG witnessing to them? Did they specifically ask, and receive an answer, to whether or not the JW faith was the Kingdom of G-d on earth? I would say no.
NOGGIN responds:
I don't know how to respond. I gather you are seriously asserting that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not ask God if the path they are on is the only True path or his approved divine path?
GORDON: Why don't you ask them yourself?
NOGGIN: I have
NOGGIN: You know... why ruin it for you? I am just going to pass on blasting away at that assertion of yours.
GORDON Continues: Whatever witness they received, came when they were studying with, or in association with, the JW's. They would then relate that witness to that which brought them to it.
If I'm seeking G-d for the first time in my life, and a friend invites my to go with them to their Baptist service, and upon hearing the preacher speak of G-d or Christ, the HG testifies to me that their IS a G-d, or that there IS a Christ, I would most likely associate that witness with the Baptist faith...since that is what brought me to my witness in the first place. Now, I didn't specifically ask the Lord if Protestantism was the 'one true way', but I received a witness nonetheless. I most likely would not feel a need to search any further. I have received a witness by attending that Baptist service, and would then accept what else was being taught there. Nobody could tell me that my witness was wrong...because it wasn't, so don't tell me my faith is wrong either. However, I would never have specifically received a witness of the Baptist faith, itself.
You see, every person that has received a witness knows what they have received, but they tend to relate it to something that they have not received a specific witness of. Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics, Protestants, JW's, whatever, have received witnesses, but they all relate them to something they didn't receive a witness of. As Serious has stated, we, as Latter-day Saints, have specifically asked of the truthfulness of the BoM, and the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. How many people ask the Lord as to whether or not their preacher/pastor is a prophet of G-d? If that preacher was the one speaking of Christ when they received their witness, then it is not absurd for them to see that preacher as a man of G-d.
Do you understand what I am saying?
NOGGIN responds: Gordon. millions and millions of people do it or something like it all day long. Get out and meet some people.
GORDON: Do they? I have met many people, and none of them have ever claimed to have asked such a question.
NOGGIN: Then those with whom I have met with privately are a bunch of liars. Scientologists, JW's, Catholics, Eckankar. I took what they told me at face value.
GORDON: So you're telling me that all these people specifically asked if their faith/religion was the 'one and only true church' of the Lord on this earth, containing a fulness of His Gospel, through prayer to G-d, and that they received a witness from the HG that this was true? Or prayed and specifically asked that their understandings and interpretations of the Bible are the only correct ones (or for others, such as Muslims, they specifically prayed to know if their scriptures - Qur-an - is of G-d)? Them simply telling you that they know their religion is absolute is NOT the same thing.
NOGGIN:
People assert all the time that theirs is the only true church of God and everyone else is in error.
GORDON: Really? Could you tell me who you have talked to, other than LDS, that has specifically asked if their faith is the 'one true church'? Don't worry, I'll wait.
NOGGIN: Baptists, Muslims, Eckankar, JW, Catholics, They do it on a feeling, the same feeling you get. They all do this. You admit that they feel something. I know they feel something. I felt it in their churches. I am about to embark on a scientology experiment next month in attending a significant auditing session that is supposed to elicit euphoric states of mind. Scientology has little to do with christianity. That is why I am so looking forward to using them as another basis for comparison.
I gather I will feel "The Spirit" there too. It will be the same self made feeling I have felt in all the other religions I have delved into.
Look, all I am trying to do is inject some level of rational thought. Let me try it this way: You can have faith that you are on the only true path back to god. That is fine. Great! No problem there.
However, too often a Mormon will walk around as if he has had his calling and election made sure (note: this is the folklore depicting when Jesus appears to a faithful Mormon and seals this person up to his exhaltation). That is the only way you could say that you know for sure... and even that is debatable! (brain seizures and epilepsy have been studied and now are thought to be behind significant high spiritual experiences).
Faith is one thing. But when you state "I know the church is true" you are stating too much.
GORDON: I know that Hydrogen and Oxygen make water...was that too much for you too?
NOGGIN: One thing I do know and that is you are toying with me.
Online Mormon poster SERIOUS: LOL, I'm sorry, Noggin, but you still don't get it.
NOGGIN: I am glad you are finding the humor in it.
SERIOUS: We do get out and we do know lots and lots of people of many different religions. I don't know one who asked (in the correct manner) God where to find His one true church.
If they did they would get an answer unlike what you have explained. You have stated that your people ask and are told their church is the true one. That isn't the way the Lord answers the prayers. So we have to assume they didn't get the answer from the Lord.
NOGGIN: Oh no you don't. No way can you slippery fish this one. We don't have to assume anything. You have an unfortunate pre determined bias that filters what I am pointig out to you. You already "know" that your church is true which then clouds your ability to see that the feeling that tells you this is so is the same exact feeling that tells the other One and Only true churches that they are also the one and only true church.
SERIOUS: If you want to know the kind of Answer God gives to this question, you should follow the steps to getting a real answer from the Lord and find out for yourself.
NOGGIN: Are you going to say that the answer I got as a missionary so many times is invalid? No. Because that feeling came to me and I recognized it. This same feeling came to me in other churches as I pondered their truthfulness. To top it off, I have been told by other religionists that they too know their church is the only true church and they know this by virtue of powerful feelings of god granted peace and warmth.
I swear you guys read what you want to and then disregard the rest.
Did any of you read my accounting of the Jehovah's Witnesses who built the chapel down the street from me? Do you think that they did all that hard work (and countless days of free labor) on a hunch that perhaps maybe it could be possibly.. the jury is still out... but we think our church could very well be true?
No! They know it is true.
After a couple weeks of studying with a Jehovah's Witness, he finally witnessed to me a dire warning that because I was rejecting the JW faith I was doomed to become a void in Jehovah God's mind in the next life. Poof, no more me. While he and his JW compadres got to enter into Paradise.
Galen, the 5th level Eckankar initiate with whom I studied for weeks off and on told me at one point that I now knew too much about "the true way" of the Eck. If I did not embrace Eckankar I was going to face something terrible when I died. Do you know what that was? I was going to have to forfeit my evolutionary reincarnation process I had obtained up to this point. I was doomed to start the reincarnation process all over as .... drum roll please... plant fungus.
Dustin, the Scientologist with whom I am currently studying has hinted to an awful fate of the Scientologist apostate. I am dying to pick him apart to hear what that fate is.
connect the dots already
If you sense a tone change, you have detected correctly. I understand better why the two of us cannot get along. You cannot concede on the most basic items of testimony that you could, in fact, be wrong. I have come half way in admitting that Smith really could have seen god, I mean who knows? God might really exist after it is all said and done, who knows? However, you are refusing to just come down a notch and say that by faith you hope that your church is true.
To say that you know it is true implies that god himself has come down and told you so himself. If that is the case, I commend you. I understand the sacred nature of such an event and that you are forbidden to talk about it so I won't press you for details.
If you have not had your calling and election made sure, [where Jesus appears to you and declares to you your exhaltation], you cannot say that you know you are in the only true church and everyone else (non mormon) is not.
Best of luck. If you are still up for another round, I will remain patient.
Noggin
ECKANKAR AS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE "CHURCH"
A brief compilation to illustrate that other churches do indeed claim exclusive rights as Gods one and only true church:
For "Serious" and "Gordon"
Both of you are unwilling to climb down a notch or two with your testimony claims that Mormons are the sole possessor of God's Truth as it pertains to saving a man's soul.. meaning that you are right about God in every aspect and everyone else non mormon are wrong. I have tried to correct you. To no avail.
GORDON:
Noggin-
No one here (LDS) claims to have 'sole possesion' of truth...you simply believe we believe this, and NOTHING said here will change your mind, apparently.
We claim to have the fulness of the Gospel...why can you not understand the difference?
NOGGIN:
Argh. I am a deflated balloon. pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft. I am spent. I am limp and lying on the floor.
The Fullness of the Gospel as contained in the LDS cannon includes ideology such as:
From the pen of Joseph Smith himself (er... one of his scribes actually)
JSHistory 1:19
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them;
And this exclusivity is outlined in the scriptures such as:
2Nephi 31 17-18
17. Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water[into the mormon church]; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life[in the mormon celestial kingdom]; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
3 Ne. 14: 14
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it [as in the mormon celestial kingdom].
3 Ne. 27: 33
33 And it came to pass that when Jesus had ended these sayings he said unto his disciples: Enter ye in at the strait gate; for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work.
D&C 132: 22
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
Look Gordon, I have spent time these past three days off and on with you and the other poster, Serious. I give up. Will you please be patient and teach me what the heck I am missing? Please spend some time thinking about how you might crack through this dense skull of mine.
Because I cannot get past what it is I cannot get past. Mormons claim exclusivity. I just quoted your founding prophet outlining how this is so. ALL other churches were and still are an abomination in God's eye. If I die an apostate I am not going to end up in your brand of heaven. Which is fine, since I am pretty positive that it is made up... but I could be wrong (see, I am willing to say it for concessions sake).
GORDON:
You continue to rehash statements of those who claim they have they only truth to 'saving the soul', and that you are on your way to hell. You keep trying to suggest that I, or any other LDS member, claims this as well. This is simply not the case...no matter how much you try to convince yourself that it is. Your beliefs/knowledge in Christ is enough to 'save' you, but without the fulness of the Gospel, one cannot attain to the highest heaven. MANY people/religions/faiths have truth, but they do not have the complete truths pertaining to the Gospel of Christ.
NOGGIN:
We are splitting hairs. Anything less that Celestial kingdom, as I was taught and taught others, was a recipe for damnation. Damned as in stopped up, no more progression for you. You know this is true.
GORDON:
I have NEVER claimed that we are right, and everyone else is wrong...why would you even claim such a thing of me?
NOGGIN:
You don't have to say it. It is included in the core strata of your belief structure. Please see that.
(Tone: no animosity, lightbulb turning on) OKAY... I get a glimmer of what is going on here! GORDON! You are kind of like my wife then, you shop cafeteria style with the key Mormon doctrines? There are many Mormons who pick and choose say, like with respect to Polygamy. My wife holds serious disdain for polygamy. But does not allow that wacky doctrine to sink her testimony (it had a key role in sinking mine)
GORDON:
What I will say, though, is that they, you, have not accepted, for whatever reasons, the rest of the truths available to them.
NOGGIN:
I demonstrated my willingness from post #1 on this thread to concede that I could be wrong about my belief that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. I even conceded that I could be wrong about my belief that there likely is no god. You have not reciprocated on your side.
I have also countered that I view your testimony as a certain brand of arrogance. This seems to upset you. However, your arrogance is what stands between fostering a relationship.
All you have to do is admit that your testimony is feeilngs based and therefore not a pinnacle for accuracy. Admit that it is faith, not sure knowledge that you rely on. That you "hope" that your religion is the true one. That is all it takes to lose the arrogance.
GORDON:
Is that all!? Sorry, your consideration of me as arrogant in this matter is simply your problem to get over...I can assure you that the Lord also seemed arogant to many as well...
NOGGIN:
I think the following brief excerpt I prepared for you might help illustrate why I am in such disagreeance with your claim:
Eckankar as the One and Only True Church:
I like to use this religion (or cult as the case may be) as an example because Eckankar is non judeo-christian based. Yet we see dogmatic assertions that Eckankar is the only way and all other religions are in error. They do not regard the bible, Qur'an, or any other scripture, save their own, as divine.
1. Eck as the Source of Authority: The current Living Eck Master -- "the MAHANTA, the Vi-Guru, the Light-Giver, the Way Shower, the protector, guide and companion of every ECK [student]" -- is the Eckist's sole authority for Eckankar doctrine. Eck also has its own Scriptures, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, which state that "the faith that one has in the Mahanta must be that of complete understanding and surrender." The "Word of God" in Eckankar is also known as "Shabda, Basni" -- it is the Eckist's security, and "should one have this Word of God flowing from the temple within himself, then he should be protected from bad experiences."
2. The Eck Master: Eckankar teaches that few religious disciplines are able to transcend the lower states, due to ignorance and the error of their way. Only through "soul travel," which is supposedly a superior and exclusive form of out-of-the-body experience, is one able to flow upward (or inward) through the various realms in hopes of eventually reaching the Sugmad, which exists as pure formless essence on the topmost plane. And the only way to succeed is by submitting totally to the guidance of the Living Eck Master, or Mahanta, who plugs the chela (learner or student) into the cosmic current.
3. Salvation in and through Eckankar: Twitchell (the LDS equivelant to Gordon B Hinkley) said that
"Eck is the highest of all paths to God. ... there is no other way to gain spiritual enlightenment."
He sweepingly pronounces that
"belief in anything except the Eck is false. ... ECKANKAR is the only direct path to God. ... All other paths are only stepping stones into the Astral plane. ... belief in anything except the Eck is false ... it is not possible to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven except through the teachings of ECKANKAR."
4. Reincarnation. According to Eck, as souls live their lives and make both conscious and "unconscious" choices, they accrue karma and karmic debt. Souls must then pay for or work off negative karma acquired through wrong action, either in this life or a previous one. In Eck, the individual soul must go through seemingly endless rounds of reincarnations to work off karma, taking millions of years and millions of reincarnations as the soul rises up the evolutionary scale of life. Eck teaches that the soul enters the universe as a mineral, then works its way up through plant, fish, reptile, and mammal incarnations, eventually becoming human, where it will spend any number of lifetimes until it attains spiritual enlightenment. [Twitchell claimed to have entered the lower universe as an unspecified mineral eight million years ago, and supposedly got off the "Wheel of 84" (meaning no more reincarnations) when he "translated" (Eckese for "died") in 1971.] The shortcut to God-realization is to meet and follow the Living Eck Master, whose presence will burn away eons of karmic debt, freeing the soul from the endless rebirths on the "Wheel of 84."
source: (1) SCP Journal, September 1979; (2) The DISCERNER, 2Q1992; and (3) Mount Carmel Outreach Newsletter, November 1996.
So, with such bold Eck publishings such as this, one cannot easily dismiss that a devout Eckist is merely bluffing. How do these 3 million Eckist "know" that they are on the path back to "the topmost plane"? They claim a tad more than a feelings based testimony. Just ask one or do your own study if you think I am making this up. Eckists claim out of body experience or astral projections. And after studying with them for a little over a month, and through various low level initial personal experiences of my own, I do not doubt that they are really achieving such claims.
I was told that through my willful act of not becoming an initiate, I was also dooming myself to become plant fungus in the next life. I would have to start my reincarnation process over from scratch.
I can do the same biography sketch for Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology and Islam. I can provide the quotes and the foundational claims. They all make such fantastic claims like the ones made in Eckankar.
...and incidentally, uh, in Mormonism too.
Your assertion that you, as a Mormon, have the only "approved" Truth is nothing new. You are one of many who call me on the carpet for calling the bluff.
How are you different from the Eckankar initiate's dogmatic proclomation again?
Your faith is different because, what? it is "truer" ??
GORDON:
No, [it's] more complete.
NOGGIN:
And for the grand finale: You assert that an Eckist does feel things that propel him to follow Eckankar to the ends of the earth... but that the Eckist has not asked your god "properly" or "in the proper manner". I have to fetch the barf bag (excuse the dramatics) but can't you see how odd you sound with that?
GORDON:
Try not to spew all over your shoes...
I never said anything about anyone asking 'MY' G-d, or in the 'proper manner'. I asked if they specifically asked the Lord (there is no 'my G-d, your G-d, because there is only one), period.
NOGGIN:
No, you have to see that your sentence is not ending with a "period". Did you not read the ECK article I prepared for you? The Eck Sugmad (god) is nothing like the Mormon god. The Eckist does not believe in your Mormon god in any way shape or form. They dismiss him out of hand entirely. He does not exist (to them).
And what about Zeus? Mars? Mithras? They were very real gods to those who worshipped them long ago. Yet now they are extinct gods.
GORDON:
I have no doubts about their sincerity, I don't think they are doing it for a ruse. I am doubting whether or not they specifically asked about their faith.
NOGGIN:
They don't need to ask, they travel out of their bodies and go meet their god on the astral planes of existence!!!!! They go and converse with their god frequently... face to face hand in hand!!! Good grief Gordon. 3 million Eckists cannot be just fabricating this stuff up can they? And if you tell me that they can, and I go on the Eck message board today and tell them what you assert, they will just laugh and with much confident smugness they will assert that you are the one who is making it all up.
See That? Please see that.
NOGGIN:
The Eckist will turn right around and tell YOU that YOU have not asked HIS god in the correct fashion!
GORDON:
(rolling his eyes) I sincerely doubt that.
NOGGIN:
Same with Catholics, JW's, Scientology etc. Please concede this. If you can't, then I am afraid I have done all that I can to help you.
Commentary: Surprise. Gordon never conceded. It went on for another day and eventually I lost interest and abandoned the thread.
